Strategic HRBP, HR and Digital Transformation

Introduction to Johanna Flórez: The Role of HRBP and Critical Thinking

• Edward: “How are you? How are they? What a pleasure to have you in one more episode of Coffee Break. Today I share an incredible conversation with Johanna Flórez, a CHRO passionate about transforming organizations, uh, passionate about human talent who, in addition to her great knowledge, experience in different countries, in multiple, uh, industries and verticals. Johana, it's a pleasure to have you here. Thank you for accepting the invitation.”

• Johanna Florez: “No, thank you very much and for the invitation too. For me it is an honor to be able to accompany them and share knowledge, learning and practices.”

• Edward: “What a lovely talk we're going to have, Johana. Hey, I would like to introduce the topic for you to talk a little bit to the audience, hey, this international profile, citizen of the world that you have... How did Johana get to Mexico? Hey, a little bit of your experience and trajectory in the world of HR, okay?”

• Johanna Florez: “Well, look, I'm Colombian. In fact, I have been living in Mexico City for more or less 6 years. I have lived, I have had the opportunity, for work, to live in eight countries. At the time I was with Quala, which is a Colombian mass-market company, and that's when I started my HR role small and small, right? As everyone already sees the greats of 'Oh, the strategy, the budget, make decisions'. No? In other words, literally, production plant, selection of operators, that is, the basic, basic boot, cap, no makeup, no painted nails, 6 in the morning on duty. Um, well, with this company I managed to accompany different countries, uh, from understanding the country's culture, the level of maturity and needs and well, there I moved between mass consumption, pharma, retail, hey, yes, like different industries. And well, Mexico captivated me and that's why I think I'm still here now.”

• Edward: “How nice, Jonu, what a pleasure to have you here. Just as you were saying about de Quala, I had a question about Bonice, uh, the great product, uh, hey, on the streets, all that network of salespeople, were they recruited by a team or were they more like sales agents? How did it work?”

• Johanna Florez: “Yes, no, they are like franchises already, it's a business model that was proposed in Mexico and then exported to other countries, in fact. And they are franchises, that is, they are not directly employees of Quala, they are franchises, who are people who set up a franchise to distribute the product and that person is the one who hires these bonaiceros.”

• Edward: “How incredible and what good experiences surely from those moments, eh. In other conversations, I was struck by how passionate you are about this figure within the organization charts, I don't know, relatively modern and not, of the business partner, right? Of the HRBP, uh, that a lot of times well, hey, the role has the name, but they don't do it justice on a daily basis to be that true business partner, right? This is a business partner. And I would like to start by asking you, uh, why do you think that sometimes Human Resources is seen more like someone who is functional, operational and not as that business ally?”

• Johanna Florez: “For ourselves, that is, for the HRBP. The first thing is because I think that many times we stay transactional or operational. So it's the vast majority of people when you ask them in HR, 'ah, raffles, games and shows' or 'just hires only' or 'just people boots', in other words, like those are your three functions. And tell me what you do. Em, but I think that in addition to 'tell me what you do' it is that we how we buy that same way of operating. So we don't sit in the chair or we don't think we can sit in the chair with the CFO or with the marketing director or with the commercial director to be part of the company's strategy. So I think we often stay as Human Resources, the transactional, the operational one because we ourselves also give that position, uh, or weight to the position, right? So it's like, well, it's only when you call me that I'm here. On the other hand, the Business Partner is, I don't need you to call me, I know the business, I know you as a leader and what is your need, communication style, what the business needs right now and where it's going. Combining these four variables, that's when you become a partner. But a lot of times I say, 'no, because they're not going to believe me, I just don't know if it corresponds to me', because it doesn't matter, I always say how to believe it, that is, if you don't believe it, then no one will believe it and that's why we often remain transactional.”

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Overcoming the Transactional HR Vision: The Essence of Strategic HRBP

• Edward: “How amazing how, uh, sometimes we can be the same obstacle, isn't it? And before moving forward, there are probably members of the audience who are not clear about this role of HRBP, which is sometimes also confused with the BP Office HR, isn't it? Hey, but well, in this structure, uh, hey, how would you summarize it? How would you explain first perhaps at a theoretical level what HRBP is, eh, and then what do you consider to be those elements that make a good, uh, business partner from the HR side?”

• Johanna Florez: “Well, I think what is or what makes you a good HRBP? The first thing is that you have to know the business, without a doubt. In other words, you have to go to operate, you have to sit down, understand what people do, how they do it, what makes a difference in the business. In other words, you have to know that value proposition of your business to speak the same language that the business speaks. So, the first thing to do HRBP and not just as an HR, is that you have to know about the business. That's the first thing. Second, I think you have to know very well or at least be clear about what HR policies are, because you have to build a bridge, that is, when you tell me that doing an HRBP builds bridges between business needs, between corporate policies and objectives, that's what we do and for that you have to be an expert.”

How HRBP Knows the Business: Going to the Field and Living the Reality

• Johanna Florez: “In other words, you have to know what the business is doing, where it's going and well what your policies are. And it is in that process that you have to move. Obviously I also think that there is a fourth factor and that is having the ability to build trust, uh, and inspire other people. In other words, we do something like 'peace' and that is, uh, managing to influence without authority. Nobody in HR says, 'I'm in charge... 'well, in some companies, but 'I'm in charge of 2000 people.' No? Surely the CEO is in charge of 2000 people, the one in charge of operations, uh, 1000, I don't know, the one in charge of sales 500. And we as HRBPs, what we have to do in a different way is to achieve influence without authority. But for that you need to know these three pillars: your processes, the business and the objectives.”

• Edward: “Very important. And that impact, uh, that the truth seems incredible to me, to influence without having the hierarchy directly. Are there any practical tips? Any specific tactics that have helped you along your journey, Johanna?”

• Johanna Florez: “What a good question. Hey, look, I think that from my experience what has worked for me personally with eight countries, four industries, and, foreign, women, uh, I think the first thing is to believe it. I mean, definitely the security of hey, I do have to contribute, right? From a proud and humble point of view, I am HR and you do what I say, because that's where you stay as in politics, the book, the theory. It's like, believe her, that you can be influential and strategic. The second is, you have to have a super loud and super active listener. In other words, not listening to answer, you are going to tell me and I already know the answer, it's good, what is he telling me in the background? Because sometimes people make requests to you but they come between the lines because of the complexity of the corporate world too, no, I can't have that difficult conversation, I can't say it up front, I can't confront, it depends on cultures. But in general, the corporate world has an important political touch. So what has worked for me? Well, the first thing is to believe it since I have a way to contribute. The second is an important level of listening and seeing beyond the obvious, that is, not only what you're saying to me, but how you're saying it to me, how many times you told me, what adjectives, what words, um, yes. And the third one, I think, is consistency. Hey, there can't be half an inch of distance between what you say and what you do as HRBP. Because that undermines all credibility and that's where they're going to make you tactical, where they're going to make you operational. The relationship becomes a customer, an internal supplier rather than a corporate relationship, exactly.”

• Edward: “How wise. And thinking about this, knowing the part of the business, because well, the ways to return to HRBP, there are people who come from attracting talent, that is, from a specific area of HR, or there are people who come from the business and take this position. Hey, what helped you to soak up the business? No? In addition to this active listening, which I think is a good superpower.”

• Johanna Florez: “Yes, I think that personally, as in every company they have taught me, but I think that the first thing when I started very young, which I counted to them, very small, as a selection of operators, a production plant, was, uh, to be close to people. I mean, how do you understand the business? Well, living it and the people, the leaders, right? Middle controls, 'down', down, down, the base. Yes, because as you grow up or there is greater hierarchy, you lose a little bit of the context and detail of how things happen. In the end you only get to the result and you lose as what the level of effort was, if there are such 'stoppers' along the way, you don't know what's going on. So my recommendation and what worked for me when I changed my position, when I changed companies, changed sectors is good, I want to go to the field, I want to go with people, I'm going to do your shadow, you do your normal work, I just want to understand what you're doing. That allows me to live the business from reality, not from theory, where oh no, well, look, I know that we are a retailer and we have 1700 stores and because we are employer number three in Mexico, no, it's divine. So, well, we go to the store, so what does a seller face? What does a logistics person face? Because that also allows you, from the perspective of HRBP, to understand what you need, what type of profiles you need. So you say, 'Oh, no, it's just that he's not the same one who's going to serve a director who's going to serve an operator', I'm going to invent everything from boss to HR person or supervisor.

• Beyond Policies: Criteria, Curiosity and Common Sense in HR

• Johanna Florez: “So it worked a lot for me to know the business. The second thing is to keep as the level of curiosity alive. Sometimes in HR we buy the 'It's that the procedure says' and because I've used it a lot of times too, I have to say, it works for me the 'it's not that politics rules that the percentage of the increase can only be this', hey, that you can't jump from seven positions upwards. And that has a reason for being, of course, and that is to take care of meritocracy, it is to take care of people even because you can burn them if you grow them very, well, early. Hey, but sometimes we're left with that 'politics says', of course, and we lose our sense of curiosity because it's just, well, it's already written, isn't it? That's right. And we forget something on the other side and that is that what makes a little difference, especially in these times of AI technology, is judgment and common sense. It's not that common anymore.”

• Edward: “Sure, it's not that common.”

• Johanna Florez: “And I think that's one of the risks we have with AI, because you ChatGPT or whoever you want to put on it, right? You do the consultation and he analyzes the book, he throws you the summary, the comparative table, but there is something that he will never give you and that is common sense and judgment. Okay, but beyond the politics of what's written, what's going on? Can I make an exception? Does this have an impact in any other way on climate, on turnover, on team productivity, on values? Yes. So, I think that's why I mix everything with everything, because I say, you have to be curious and it's not that you keep policies as a challenge, but they should be updated. In other words, no, they are not indelible written on paper, but rather like, hey, this is, but...”

• Edward: “And the rules are at the service of people and not the other way around, right?”

• Johanna Florez: “Exactly. So I think that, that is, knowing the business from going out to the field and being close to basic people, literally, and from there up, well, being curious about, well, yes, but why? And how, how did we come to do it that way? And can it be done differently? Hey, who's the competition? And how did you feel? That is, how not to lose curiosity and above all because...”

• Edward: “I imagine that in business leaders they can easily lose that feeling, that feeling of the battlefield, right?”

• Johanna Florez: “I think it's not easily part of the organizational structure, because in the end you as a leader are going to have 20 open fronts and you're going to have to decide which one you're going to give more time to or well works and surely because in that rationale of financial productivity that a company has to have in the end it's good this has a cost eh it has reputational quality it's legal I don't know yes ah well ah that if Juan and Pedro fought in the No well thanks but I can't get there so I think it's part of the process”.

• Edward: “How interesting because hey I am left with the image of HRBP as an eye on the battlefield that is informing the business leader and is starting to reconcile and to manage.”

• Johanna Florez: “Yes, in what you say that we are informing him, I think we have like a couple of important challenges and it's time to be totally equanimous, because anything can happen and it has happened to me, that is, from the one who comes and tells me and I ask him, 'And what are you telling me for? ' , because he comes and tells me with a not so good intention, isn't he? 'Oh, it's not that he's going to tell Juan to listen to Pedro and then Mengano comes out oh, questioned, admonished', right? In other words, I think that at HR we have, for example, a beautiful, challenging process, which is the honest line or yes, the lines of complaint. Yes, many times you are also faced with 'ah, they filed the complaint and when you start the investigation you realize that basically it was just another issue of not getting along well, they had differences in thinking styles'. So, that's why I say that it's very important to keep that balance of, 'okay, every version has two faces', that's perfect. Em, and from the level of fairness I also think that one of the HR challenges of, 'ah, well, I'm surprised at what you're saying to me', that you say, 'Wow, I mean, if you tell me this from the outside, I don't, how? ' , but in the HR role I have to stay calm, because people, depending on how I react, are also going to feel that way. I mean, I can give you an example, uh, in one of my most recent challenges, digital transformation and there was a moment of uncertainty when you said, 'Well, if we're going to achieve it or not we're going to achieve it, uh, moving a company of 125,000 people, a business unit of 2,000 and that's the change of the process, it's the change of technology, it's the change of leadership, all at the same time. ' And one says, 'Well, we don't know. '

• Edward: “And do you think we're on the right track?”

• Johanna Florez: “Of course, of course, yes, but because I am aware that in the end people need a piece of peace of mind that the leaders give them. Of course.”

Bloque

• Johanna Florez: “So, that's why I say, I think there's a mix of a responsibility as well and and an important challenge of knowing what to use, what, how and when to use that information and with whom.”

• Edward: “And with whom, for the good of the organization and those people who sometimes have a smaller vision, right?”

• Johanna Florez: “Exactly, exactly. Hey, and I love that you start to touch on this topic of digital transformation, hey, but before we go there, if you had to write a letter to Santa Claus or the drawing of the ideal HRBP, hey, what skills do you have to have? I mean, I think we've already been drawing it out in the conversation, but what does an HRBP have to have that stands out from the rest and becomes truly different?”

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AI and Critical Thinking: Analytical Capacity as a Differentiator in HR

• Johanna Florez: “Well, um, I think the subject of critical thinking, because everyone... I mean, I'm going to listen to all the versions. So, in those versions I have to have a critical thought to say, 'Oh, I understood that this was a personal misunderstanding and I don't have to escalate anything, it goes and time will resolve it or you will resolve it very willingly' or 'I understood that there is a potential legal, uh, financial, tax risk here. ' So, okay, I have to manage it, but also, then I think that the first thing that can be different, besides what we've already talked about is curiosity, consistency, knowledge of the business, critical thinking, uh, to be able to differentiate when you have to scale it, hey, when you have to act something, sometimes you don't scale it but you have to trigger some actions or sometimes you don't have to do anything. And I feel that in this last option, sometimes HR struggles because we have a false paradigm of 'we always have to do, always, I always have to solve'. Then people come and I do it because they need something, because I have to move, because... and sometimes they just need to talk. Sure, yes. So, I think that a basic competence of an HRBP for my taste with my experience that makes the difference and like a memorable HRBP where people say, 'Hey, this man is my partner. ' In other words, your strategic business partner is really critical thinking, where you do have the ability to differentiate when you have to act or just shut up or scale up or well, different things. Um, the second one, I think that's what we're talking about on the subject of Influence without authority. In other words, in the end we as HRBP don't do anything, people get hives, but I mean, what I do is I listen to you, I understand the policy, I propose the strategy, but if the boss doesn't want to execute it, I can't do anything. I mean, it's going to stay on paper. And that's why often organizational changes or system updates, policies stay there because the boss doesn't finish buying them for you. So I think the issue of influencing without having authority is a basic one.”

• Edward: “How important because it's not only creating cohesion but also making things happen without you being able to execute, exactly, isn't it? And finally, to close this part of the HRBPs, how much, because also the relationship, although it is with the business, is then with the specialists in talent attraction, organizational development, compensation, in other words, the COEs, how much can an HRBP help to really specialize those COEs, who can know the reality of the business and that can, let's say, increase the level, right? Hey, hey, in this building bridges because you have to pull on both sides, what role does HRBP play with CEOs?”

• Johanna Florez: “Everything. It is the master orchestra, in other words, it is like the central axis of coordination. Because in the end the CEO will move depending on what I let him know. So, I have to get my CEO to know my business very well, my business very well. Because sometimes what happens to us with CEOs is that they are very specialized and very from a single angle. When you are with the HRBP you say, 'I have all fronts', that is, eight open fronts of all processes, needs. So, I think one of the ways that has worked for me is to go hand in hand with the CEO, that is, not to separate how you are CEO and I am HRBP. Look, in the end we are HR regardless of whether you are more specialized or not than me. And it's also like giving them that credibility and support of hey, I'm going to back you up, of course. We have to line up first, right? This makes sense for the business, if there is a policy I don't know, in one example I came up with an example recently, 'ah, well, we're going to do some change management workshops, the methodology says that the workshop has to last 7 hours because that's what will ensure that everyone learns, writes, comes back and repeat', right? You tell me, I tell you, we tell ourselves this. And I tell him, 'Hey, when I'm in a digital business where I measure it for seconds, the page goes down for 2 seconds and for me I already lost millions, millions of pesos, dollars. Do you want my business to sit 7 hours? No, it's not going to happen. ' In other words, and I tell you this with the intention of building, of how we did achieve the workshop, how you do your methodology, but also super adjusted to reality, because they are not measured in hours, they are measured in seconds. Then multiply there the seconds of an hour by 7 hours. Of course, hey, yes, so I think it can always be achieved by going very hand in hand, that is, super teammates. Em, super teammates.”

• Edward: “What? Hey, and maybe to be a little devil's advocate, why doesn't the business go directly to the CEOs?”

• Johanna Florez: “Because CEOs don't have the big picture of the business, needs and strategy.”

• Edward: “OK, yes.”

• Johanna Florez: “So I say, that could be a fast track, of course. The thing is that I go to sales directly with the attraction and talent specialist and say, 'I need this. ' Of course. It can be achieved, of course you can do it, because what you can do is make the CEO your functional report. Of course. So you say, 'I'm not going to get involved, don't worry, you're a good business, if that gives the business a sense of agility, do it. I internally align myself with the CEO and say, 'Oh, well, then you're the 'front' there with the business and internally we're going to align. ' Before going with the business, we already had a meeting, we aligned ourselves, you go out with the business and as it comes my meeting is done. I mean, personally, it worked like that for me, in other words, as I say that the position of Business Partner does not simply become, uh, a blockade of bureaucracy, but rather that it finds those dynamics of agility for each of the business units.”

• Edward: “Exactly.”

• Johanna Florez: “That's what I told you at the beginning to go with humility too. In other words, believe it but not from the position of power of 'I am the Business Partner and then no one can talk to my clients' or 'hey, politics says'. No, no, because then I would be a 'stopper'. Yes, so it works better for you if you go directly to the CEO, to the specialists, that's perfect. Mr. Specialist, this client feels more comfortable this way, so you have the meeting and we align ourselves internally because in the end we are the same area. So I say, it's okay and I think that part of that of, uh, Human Resources has a superpower that can be very positive or very dark.”

• Edward: “OK, yes.”

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The HR Superpower: A Cross-Sectional and Strategic Area for Transformation

• Johanna Florez: “And it is, I say, we are the only cross-sectional area, we are the core, because we can whisper in the ear of the president or the operator, no other area can do that. So I say it's a superpower because depending on how I say it, what I say it, when I say it, people are going to calm down, people 'Oh, well, that's it, okay, I'm going to do it. ' Hey, or not. Or I can see more is all the noise that Juanchito Pérez said he didn't like the food in the dining room, bring me Juanchito Pérez if I'm paying petrodollars. Hey, so that's why I say, we have a superpower and that's going to whisper in the ear of the operator or the CEO.”

• Edward: “Yes, if you do the role of listening well and having that influence without hierarchy, it can be very powerful.”

• Johanna Florez: “Exactly. Or very dark. To create this cohesion, to make things happen. Have you had to live a long time in the role of the digital department of Coppel, a company with more than 120,000 employees? I think that today all companies in some strategic line, this technology, digital transformation, implementation of artificial intelligence, what role should HR play in this process of transformation, of adoption of technology?”

• Johanna Florez: “I think the first thing is forestall. In other words, to anticipate is, I know the culture of my company, so I know what is going to cost them the most in this process of digital transformation. Hey, I know how much it's going to cost you internally, hey, anticipating is, well, and that's so easy, I mean, it's practical, literally two clicks away or I'm going to do 20 clicks. Hey, and that's what will allow us to achieve, uh, cohesion, because in this process of digital transformation, as I said before, you don't do anything if the leaders are not 'on board', that is, if the leadership position is not completely in agreement that this is beneficial, in what it is necessary to do at this time and it is not consistent in saying, in doing. I mean, well, I do say that, but I go out and actually have the meeting, I change the process, even me. 'Oh, well, it turns out that the meetings have to go beyond him and before I liked my 3-hour meetings and then I didn't. Men, now it's 45 minutes. ' No? And I take questions. Thank you very much. Yes, raise your hand like, uh, gift questions and it's 'thank you, thank you and we're not going to answer them right now'. That is, then they give a literal example of and the leader, but thank you, that is, of that level. So I think well that's how to anticipate, anticipate and understand culture.”

• Edward: “I imagine. And what you said happens is that sometimes the initiative comes from the areas of the business and the leaders don't agree and then HR can help sell the idea or vice versa, the initiative comes from the leadership of the business and the, uh, the other teams don't want to do or adopt technology, processes, hey, what is more difficult one or the other?”

• Johanna Florez: “Oh, look, I think it's much more difficult, uh, when the... oh, I don't know, I was going to say that the leader, but it worked for me, for me personally, when the leader doesn't see the importance I do the 'push' from the bottom. It's okay, I tell him, 'It's perfect, I'm listening, I'm not going to fight you. ' I mean, why? 'It's perfect, let's have a meeting with your people and we're going to ask them the same thing. ' That's automatically an example of influence without authority, I didn't tell you. So, uh, there's a lot easier in theory for the leader to say, 'Oh, like there's a little noise. ' In other words, in the underworld what they say turns out to be real. Em, so I think that can sometimes work for us as HR of, 'well, don't worry, I don't have to impose, I don't have to stop politics, the mandate, the HR position is power', but rather like that understanding the business and achieving as if, um, so I say, it can be much easier to do than the leader because there is no other option, social pressure. I mean, hey, 200 people are telling you, you have to push this way, I don't know. In other words, in the strategy you surely developed corporate skills, do you understand that at some point if there is something that everyone is saying it is because there is something that is actually happening, right? So I think that's a little easier. I'm not saying it's easy, I mean, it's more achievable, but you still have to know how to do the meeting so it doesn't get armed, so it's a union, right? I say it like a box of chickens that no, no, no, no, um, because then there are other side effects, working environment, turnover, like a stampede effect, then this is going to end, what happens? I mean, I don't know, right? And on the other hand, when the leader doesn't want to, I do think that's more difficult. Of course, because the first thing is that in that HR position surely, uh, we are as below, that is, I am Pepe Grillo, but hierarchically surely you are, well, he is my boss. So that position of Pepe Grillo also requires some skills in how I tell my boss or the CEO or the senior or the director or the president who is living what he's telling me, but that's not going to lead us to anything good, is it? So I think that's more challenging, that is, convincing the leader because of everything, because of the political cost, because of the skills you require, and also because of how to know, know how to read very well what are the 'drivers' of the person you are talking to, there are no leaders of leaders and there is one that is a super transactional number, right? 'Look, you know what? It's just that if we do it this way we're going to save 20 million', he goes, he's not going to ask me anything else, 'ah, that's it, how long is it going to take? ' There's another one that says to me, 'No, how did you get to the process? ' So I say, if you don't structure it well from there, yes of course, you have to understand very well who your counterpart is.”

• Edward: “Brutal, brutal. The truth is that it's easier said than told and I see you with my eyes reminding you of several experiences. Hey, Johanna, today there is a 'boom' in artificial intelligence, what challenges do you think it has? Obviously organizations have challenges implementing technology, but what challenges do you think HR areas have in implementing technology?”

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Technology Challenges in AI

• Johanna Florez: “There's everything. The first thing in general in LATAM is good, and a lie, if I think that Europe itself exists, that is, a large part of the world, HR is afraid of data. So, but, uh, the 'ROI', but the 'EBITDA', but the turnover, that is, not how, yes, what but no. So, hey, I think the first thing is how not to be afraid of data and it's like, I mean, don't worry that HR can be, uh, there it can be a tool and it's not going to replace you just because of what I tell you, judgment and common sense, right? I mean, like, um, the second thing is, you have to have data and know the business very well. I think there is a threat and not only for HR, in general for all of us who use AI and that is that today what I have seen happening is that people ask a query, that is, they enter ChatGPT, hey, people's ability to ask questions has improved, hasn't it? That is, not of analysis, but of asking questions to get a closer answer to what they are waiting for, right? But what I see happening is that people are taking that as a truth. So, 'ah, well, ChatGPT create the work climate plan for me to reduce turnover, 'no, it's a wonder that in 2 seconds you have a plan, indicators, activities, time, in other words, everything, um, and it's not like a double click of genuine analysis of what you're proposing to me, does it fit my organizational culture? Is it in line with the timing of my company? It might be the best search for blogs, recommendations, what's on Google, right?”

• Edward: “Exactly.”

• Johanna Florez: “In other words, you say, 'Give me a summary of the Harvard HR 'papers', and based on that define a strategy to improve the positioning of the employing brand. ' And he says, 'That would take me a month while I download them, learn them, understand them, I don't know what. ' And I think what's left is 'Oh, well, I got the plan. ' Oh, that's it, here it is. And that validation of hey, that artificial intelligence is doing what you need, because it's only answering questions. So I think that there is an important challenge there and that is to continue to improve the analytical capacity. I think people have gotten better at what to ask, right? Because when she first came out there, it was like, 'it's just that she doesn't answer what I want. ' No, because in Mexico they have a saying that I really like and that is 'in asking is giving, 'what did you ask him to give you? No. I mean, then I think people have improved more, and so has the algorithm, of course, right? In other words, because it feeds on people and what you are putting in, then the algorithm is building your own profile and depending on that, it adjusts the answers you want to hear. The thing is, what happens when you stick with what you want to hear? You lose perspective on the world. Yes, yes, there is no one to counterbalance you, that's where I say, critical thinking, please. That is, use it. I'm a fan of AI, I'm a fan of data, I'm a fan of technology, of BI, of everything, but always have your own judgment, so ask yourself this, does it answer what I need? What do I need this for? Yes, even if it simplifies a phenomenal process, but does it really have the impact on the business, on people as we need?”

• Edward: “Exactly. What a great recommendation, Johanna. I would like to close with what would you, uh, recommend to an HR leader who is starting to have a digital transformation project, an implementation project, that is, to play this good role as a business ally, yes, in terms of innovation, in matters of technology?”

• Johanna Florez: “I think that the first thing when there is a digital transformation or technology project is that as HR or as Pepe Grillo we have to ask ourselves What is the purpose, what is this project for? No? Because, in other words, I worked with IT, I worked digitally and I can sell you the divine project, that is, as a seller, you come out with sneakers that you don't need and you say, 'Oh, after I already bought them, I'm never going to go to the gym, I don't need them. ' So, I think that to ensure that digital transformation or the implementation of new technology is the right one and least painful is what is the purpose? And I think that question is very different from asking, uh, what do I need? Or ask yourself, what benefits does it bring me? Or what's the trend?”

• Edward: “Exactly. Or what is the competitor doing, right? Or how much does it cost me? Or what savings will I generate? Those are the questions 'by the book': what are the savings? What is the cost? What is productivity? What is the efficiency? Hey, are you going to be far or close to the market trend? Yes, that's divine, but for what? Why am I going to make that digital change?”

• Johanna Florez: “In other words, in Mexico, digital transformation has been beautiful in all sectors. I think the one who has shown the best is on the bench. Bancomer a few years ago, because it stuck a lot to Spain, and today it seems that its innovation initiatives are already open, so at such a click, I don't know what. But Coca-Cola has also had wonderful digital initiative projects. In the pandemic, he made one with the changarros of order your Coca, make the menu digitally. So I think the question is always what is it for? I mean, sorry, the purpose.

• Edward: “Exactly, for what? And that's what's the purpose?”

• Johanna Florez: “I mean, I just want to be fashionable because everyone already uses AI so I want AI too? Or finally it's why? What? Because I'm going to quintuple the size of my company, because I'm going to triple the size of sales and that's not scalable with the processes I'm doing today, for example. I mean, literally, like, why do we need to do all this? Because I need to triple digital sales in 3 years, now. And then my answers begin: oh, the logistics cost, the warehouse, the labor. But in the end, for what? So when you, following this example, explain to a person who started the literal company, pen, paper, that is, it is not that now we are going to do it with a click, how? How? How? And what's going to happen to people? Are you going to run them? So as with that change, hey, there will surely be people who do adjust and we do need and we're going to do things like 'upskilling' or 'reskilling' and that's, well, you had sales skills and it turns out that now I can switch you to marketing and don't be afraid to change yourself, right? But I think that's it. Yes, it touches a lot of fibers and that purpose in the end has to serve to align everyone, uh, involved in the process.”

• Edward: “Exactly.”

• Johanna Florez: “So the question is what is the purpose? Because if you just say why I'm doing it, it's going to be from one area. I was going to tell you, 'Oh, well, because it's going to be more efficient, because I'm going to centralize information, it's going to be more productive, hey, I'm going to secure controls, go to finance. ' But each one is from his own trench. Then you say, 'Yes, but please don't. ' That is, it expands the 'scope'. In other words, the indicators, thank you, the 'ROI', that of efficiency, productivity, rotation, control panels, in other words, I can list them for you, but in the end that will be by area because that is how I am, that is, what is like the OKR, yes, like that key result objective and not the global one. And when you talk about a transformation you need to be able to establish a backbone for everyone to feel part of. He says, 'Sure, I do go there. ' In other words, that affects me, that also shocks me, I can also be proud of the fact that, oh, they come and show you and here on the iPad and in the catalog, 'ah, don't worry that here I have another type of catalog different from the one you see in India and that's not bad, what a cool thing we can have in the same company options to offer the base of the PM and others above. ' In other words, what great challenges are there in jumping from what the book says to the reality of the business and that role, that superpower of being the Pepe Grillo of HR to push people, right? In the end, uh, leadership is the ability to get people to go out of their way to face a different challenge and I love that tone, which is a leadership that doesn't come from authority or hierarchy, it comes from a horizontal influence, from closeness, from knowing how to listen.

• Edward: Johanna, what a rich conversation, thank you for being here. I don't know if there are any recommendations for the audience, um, something you want to share to close.”

• Johanna Florez: “Well, suddenly for everyone who is in HR, that is, HRBP or specialist or who wants to move to this area, the first thing I want to tell you is, I am completely convinced that we are the only cross-cutting area that has the capacity to transform people and companies because I can speak as I said with the operator but with the president. And in that 'gap' between the first and the last level, you're going to learn a lot of things. So, Believe me, we are completely strategic because no other area in the company has that as a superpower. That would be my recommendation.”

• Edward: “Johanna, thank you very much, hey, there's a long way to go on talking, but hey, we have to cut. Thank you for being here.”

• Johanna Florez: “No, thank you very much and well what a joy and good conversation as well. Thank you very much. Amen.”

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