Keys to Retaining Talent and People First Culture with Manu Rojas

‍Edward: How are they? Welcome to one more episode of Job of the Day. Today I'm sharing with José Manuel Rojas, Manu Rojas, uh, a passionate human talent enthusiast with a career of more than 20 years in human resources. Manu, thank you so much for being here.

Manu Rojas: Thank you very much, Lalo. Well, very happy to share with all of you a little bit about this passion for talent, isn't it? This new wave is also being generated here close to concern for people and good, that we can create healthy environments in all organizations.

Edward: Brutal, brutal. I would love to, I mean, I know your background, you are a generalist who has been in everything, right? And human resources in the end is very broad: talent, attraction, internal communication, compensation and benefits, organizational development. What, let's say, are you most passionate about in talent? What does Eh Manu specialize in to be able to speak and frame this conversation well?

Manu Rojas: More than specializing, what really fascinates me is attract and keep, that's the formula, isn't it? Who do you open the door to in your organization? In other words, who arrives and how do you keep it? Which for me is the key essence, isn't it? In other words, there are many ways to search for talent, there are many ways to bring in the right talent, but the really important thing is to visualize that those people who can count on Skills necessary to be able to cover the functions, they will adapt to the company you are at the moment and to the company you are going to be, because in the end cultural changes and organizational culture are experienced on a daily basis. In other words, we used to see that organizational culture was a composite, right? Organizational attributes that we wanted the company to have, not today. Today, organizational culture changes along with environmental conditions, and health conditions, and the conditions in which we are facing, right? That the same generations. then organizational culture must be so mobile that we also have to move alongside them. So, I could tell you that more than a specialty, my passion lies in attracting the right people and making them stay.

Edward: Brutal, brutal. And what would you say is the thing that impacts the most, today to retain talent, no, or for people to remain? Because all organizations are having a challenge to keep people not only loyal but productive, aligned with the purpose and objectives of the business. I mean, how would you summarize what makes people stay?

‍

The New Essence of the Role of Human Resources

Manu Rojas: I love that question and I love to put it together and structure it in a thousand ways. Talking about talent is talking about people, isn't it? Previously, this term of human resources was used and so we are talking about the fact that from the term we must coin different terms so that people feel like people, so that talent feels talented and stop seeing it as that resource that was as a material sense to work much more towards the emotional part or the part of the person, right? So, What is the challenge? I always say hey to human resources people, to human resources managers or to people with whom we share this question, they are reviewed and I say: “Let's see, what makes you maintain a personal relationship? Why are you with your wife today? Why do you have that group of friends today? Why do you decide today to go have a drink at that bar of your choice?” No? And if we summarize all that, talk about an emotional topic, talk about what keeps you going, what keeps you going. So, the challenge rather than a challenge, the task is to start ourselves to generate employee experience strategies. In other words, that the employee has an experience from the start, or rather, from before the entry, right? From that expectation of saying: “I want to be there”, but why do you want to be there? What value has the organization created for you, a professional of many years, right? , or a recent graduate, want to be part of that company? What is he offering you? What is it communicating, isn't it? And how do you live that experience? And once they're inside, then start to fertilize and nourish it, right? I'm going to tell you about a very particular experience I had with one with a company, right? The turn is a turn of Retail and I'm not going to talk about brands, but completely about twists, and they had a term that they wanted to establish within the organization that said: “Hey, you know what? We want to build a talent pool.” OK, when I suddenly heard the word youth, in soccer, that is, I said: “Wait, wait, from the term youth academy, why say youth academy?” The quarry refers to a mine, to exploitation, to stones, right? I mean, you're talking about stones, they're people. Why not call him a hotbed? No? And he said to me: “No, hey, it's just that you're romanticizing human resources.” He said: “No, I'm not romanticizing it, I'm giving people value, because exploiting a mineral, no, overexploiting it, that is, taking out its maximum shine to turn it into a diamond, is not the same as having a seed that you're going to nourish because it speaks of commitment, isn't it? So, I'm a company I'm a nurturing company, I'm committed to development, right? So, it's going over there, isn't it? The brutal experience part.

Edward: Example, and how strong the power of words is, isn't it? Changing from quarry to seedbed therefore has an impact on the entire vision of organizational culture. Now, in short, the topic of employee experience you mentioned is becoming more and more relevant, isn't it? And we were talking the other time about that McKinsey report in the pandemic that before companies were very focused on their product, then a wave came when companies began to dedicate themselves a lot to their customers and this whole wave of being customer-centric came and I think that today we continue to live in many companies in Mexico, in Latin America, focused 100% on the customer and The pandemic evidenced and created this trend People First, isn't it? Put the employee at the center of the company, knowing that a good collaborator will have better customers. Now, this topic of collaborator experience in that line is very broad, isn't it? Hey hey, the experience of the collaborator in the end you say: “We are people and it touches all the parts.” If you had to sort it out, what would you tell me that most impacts the employee's experience and how do you understand a human resources strategy to land it, right? In other words, I think this can greatly help other talent leaders to land a collaborator experience strategy.

Manu Rojas: Completely. Look, for me everything is focused on organizational culture. Organizational culture is that core, isn't it? Simply talking about culture is talking about a set of mechanisms that make us what we are, right? You go to you go home and you already have a certain culture in your house, don't you? Rituals you have, right? From the part where you enter your house, this one, where do you put your jacket when you arrive? I mean, like that kind of ritual. And it's the same in organizations, isn't it? From the form of greeting, right? There are some companies where we develop greeting rituals and which can become a rather funny practice, depending on the organizational level, clearly because managers are not going to do this type of ritual at best, but it does pay a lot to the operational part because it makes them part of something, right? It makes them part of something. So, organizational culture for me is the core. What happens on many occasions? There are companies that are growing rapidly and that believe that they live with a standard organizational culture, which is what happens a lot with startups. Companies are starting out with a wonderful culture, there are few of them and it's very easy to maintain a healthy culture when you have 40 employees, 20 employees, because the contact is direct, it's immediate. What happens when these companies grow? People start to divorce because they start to separate and then they start to have a feeling of loss, they start to feel that they are no longer the way they were before, right? And then, How do you deal with that feeling of loss? It's culture, isn't it? From the part where we tell them: “This is how we greet, that's how we are, that's how we serve.” You say it, the center is the customer for most organizations because that's where the sale comes from, right? It's where performance comes from. Aha. But if we start to reflect on who serves the customer, we will realize that The center is the employee, it's the collaborator, right? A collaborator who is in a bad mood is going to treat the person who arrives in a bad mood, right? A collaborator who doesn't have the answer from their immediate boss or the feedback from their leader about what to improve will experience confusion all the time. And so that's the center: organizational culture and the composition of organizational culture ranges from having modules and blocks of open culture, of culture where **transparency is the center, right? If we speak with transparency, I know that you need me and you know what I can give to you, but in many cases companies experience these esoteric processes where “we have to take care, people should not know this”, and why not? If you don't know it's because it's wrong, it's because it's something forbidden and then this culture of transparent communication is going to tell you: “Hey, this is your job and you're doing it well, you could improve it this way, right? , or are you doing it wrong, aren't you?” I'm going to tell you the same thing about an experience I had with a group, hey it's just a restaurant group and I was talking to them about the topic of Feedback, isn't it? And I said to him: “Let's see, there are a lot of methods to give Feedback, isn't it? And the most proven one is the Oreo method, right? We do, hey, I'm going to tell you something very positive, what are you doing? , then I'm going to change to what you should improve and then I'll close with something positive.” And a person says to me, “Hey, what if I don't have anything positive to say to the person?” And then here comes the subject of a difficult conversation, isn't it? How do you give a difficult conversation? Well, tell them, hey, I thank you much more than in Mexican and Latin American culture that we have to be politically correct in everything and it's hard to be frontal, isn't it? Totally.

‍

The Employee Experience and the Evolving Organizational Culture

Edward: But what's wrong with the fact that one day your boss or leader comes and says: “Hey, Lalo, hey, these are the results we expected but they haven't been achieved and I think you can improve on this, right?

Manu Rojas: It's all in communication, in how you also communicate the bad news or how you communicate what isn't right.

Edward: Now, how do you train people to see that good news, right? For these rituals, because many times in the dynamics of the operation it is very difficult for all those manuals, policies, procedures that pass the area of people or or human resources to remain in a Folder, isn't it? All in all, hey, that has a lot to do with convincing the leadership of what you could say romantic about the collaborator's experience, like I've seen in different organizations that it turns out that the collaborator's experience has no impact, right? What are the dynamics where human resources are built but they don't hit business results, they don't impact sales. So, How do you really measure that impact and connect it to business metrics and show that it should be part of the central strategy of the entire company? What recommendations or what would you say how do you make to measure the impact of all these initiatives, rituals, practices of employee experience so that they are actually adopted in the organization?

‍

Block: Key Metrics for Measuring the Impact of the Employee Experience

Manu Rojas: Look, talking about KPIs is talking about numbers and Numbers never lie, isn't it? Something very important that you are going to measure the topic of organizational development in particular and the topic of experience, satisfaction and emotions is sometimes very difficult to measure because it can also be very subjective, of course. If we want to give him a number, let's call him Engagement, isn't it? So, that Engagement It's going to be how much we're achieving with them through the different campaigns, isn't it? An example that I am very clear about was, we developed for for a company of Healthcare a mentoring method or methodology, okay? No, in the end the concern was: “How much will it help us if these mentorships truly bear fruit with the people we are training?” No, because in the end the challenge was to measure satisfaction. I said to them: “Well, if we want to see it then we measure pulses, right? And these pulses can be weekly, biweekly or monthly, how satisfied is the employee with their role?”

Edward: And are those pulses an interview format or were you sending them a survey?

Manu Rojas: It's a survey and it's a very brief survey that you can even send to their emails, to their mobile phones, a survey that doesn't have more than five questions that talk about satisfaction, how they feel at the moment, and their workload, right? And in the end, the topic of mentoring was not just returning a number to the organization about what the collaborator is doing, but it also allowed the collaborator to feel the importance of: “Hey, I have a mentor, right? , is training a person who has been with the organization for a long time and I want to become what he has become within the company.” So, it's always that, isn't it? Revise the number, that is, how do you check it? Well, we can do a pulse, right? We looked at a survey and this survey that is going to give you Engagement. What is the Engagement What are we having for each of the causes of the programs or policies we are developing?

Edward: Brutal, brutal. If you had to summarize in two or three specific metrics that every organization has to have in order to have these pulses, what would they be?

Manu Rojas: The first one, eh staff retention. In other words, and within staff retention, why are people staying and why do they want to stay? Yes, that's right. Number one, what are we doing right to hold back, right? Another, another of the metrics, staff turnoverWell, definitely, isn't it? In other words, if you notice, they are the two poles. We want to know why you are here why those who are staying and why those who are leaving are leaving. Those two are very good, but one that for me is the fundamental key because it is the NPS addressed to the collaborator, the Employee Net Promoter Score. No? Correct. I mean, why? Why is it also important to know how satisfied they are, isn't it? That is, because there are those who are going to stay and say: “I want to stay because I don't want to lose my job.” Of course. The majority of the workforce that is in the base is going to say: “Hey, well, because I have no other choice, because you're paying me and well, because I want to be here.” But that's not the answer we want in the organization. We want to be told because it inspires me what they are doing, because the purpose of the organization connects with my purpose in life and with my personal purpose, because then that helps to create a shared vision, right?

Edward: Hey, could you explain a little more to me I mean, I know the NPS, but briefly explain for those who have no context of how it's done, how it's applied and what the metric tells you?

Manu Rojas: Well, the metric basically says the employee satisfaction parameter within the organization. It's all part of a single question, right? And that question is to see that degree of satisfaction, that is, How much would you recommend that a colleague collaborate with us? That's an NPS question that might work. “How much would you recommend?” Why? Because on many occasions if you ask the person directly: “Hey, how are you feeling?” , I'm going to tell you that's fine because you're not going to want to conflict, but hey, how much would you recommend? A person from one to five, no, totally satisfied, moderately satisfied, hmm null because I have no idea or I don't feel clearly to say it or dissatisfied and completely dissatisfied. Well, when you suddenly start to see the number three and you say: “How? Not sure if you would recommend someone?” Like four? What do we need? It allows you to visualize it, doesn't it? That and another, the permanence parameter, right? In other words, I would measure 2 years or 3 years, this, hey, in the next 2 years this one, what are your plans within the company or how satisfied are you or how much do you want to remain with everything? Do you see yourself part of the company between now and the next? And much more so with these generations, in other words, there are many very mobile generations, right? And speaking of technology, for example, right? One of the problems we faced right in a technology company was that we were hiring profiles of programmers, profiles of eh of users, right? On the UX side and all of a sudden they lasted 4 months and they were leaving, right? And all of a sudden, why are people leaving? “Hey, you know what? Well, the conditions under which you are working are therefore not the competitive market conditions for the segment of the population that is training for that position.” That's also very important, isn't it?

Edward: 100% agree. And and in the end part of of a Approach of something that you already applied to the customer, because we have all answered at some point: “How much would you recommend this restaurant, this hotel, this experience?” , applied to a well culture a and in fact hey right now that you were talking I remembered, there is a very interesting study of how an employee who refers or what or who recommends someone is a employee who stays 50% longer than someone who doesn't recommend, isn't it? So, uh, even this crossed against a good referral strategy becomes an interesting talent attraction muscle, right? That is not only answered in the survey: “Hey, I would recommend a friend, family member or colleague to participate in the company”, otherwise I bring it, I bring it, right? And I share and those collaborators because they are the ones who have the greatest affinity with organizational culture and are usually the ones who perform the best. Do you agree?

‍

Block: The Fundamental Role of Technology in the Employee Experience

Manu Rojas: Totally. Look, something personal, of the companies in which I have had the opportunity to collaborate, I am a consumer, of course, because I believe in what they have done, that is, I believe in what they have built, right? And even though I may be a consultant or an outsider, I trust them, don't I? I mean, at levels where they could make us laugh, right? I mean, in my youth job, for example, right? Those years when you know, you were a student and you were having that first job, I'm still visiting that place today, I mean, you know? And it's still part of my personal ritual because what I got from that organization in terms of cultural issues has built me today. I have built myself as a specialist in human resources through the different leaders I have had, the organizations and the good practices that they have transmitted to me, and of course I have no problem telling him: “Go to work in that place because that place is good for a student.” Or “You know what? Go to this place because here you will find the best conditions for your personal and professional development.” So, the reality is that, Do you recommend what identifies you, of course. No, you are not going to recommend a service that you don't know that doesn't identify you because you're going to look bad when you give a recommendation. Why do you give it psychologically? It's because you want to look good too. So, say, “Hey, does that represent me or doesn't it represent me?” Sure, isn't it? So, brutal.

Edward: Here is already one of the first concrete tools from the one in the episode, to implement a and and perhaps cross it with these referral strategies, to see how willing people are. Following the line of measuring impact, the employee experience, in other words, has evolved a lot thanks to technology, hasn't it? I mean, maybe before because they did surveys huh hey in person, on paper, in the office. So today we have hybrid, remote cultures. How do you see that technology has impacted the measurement of the employee experience but above all on the employee experience, right? In other words, what is your perspective on technology in the employee experience?

Manu Rojas: Hey, it is fundamental and it is core. In other words, something that seeks a lot in the collaborator's experience is immediate, why? Because he's working, so if he has a query, what he expects is that the consultation will be immediate, right? There are a lot of platforms or there are some digital tools that can help you improve the employee experience, of course. Hey, something that I am very clear that we also developed the same was in a topic with a company, uh in particular it has a large volume of people, they are Retail, I have a lot of problems because the employee never knows where the vacation ballot is, because the employee wastes time asking for permission, because the employee... OK, so, analyzing all that and looking at all the tools that existed in the market, what we developed was an Chatbot where the collaborator could say, “Hey, vacation, what do you need for that?” , and quickly the Chatbot it gives you the immediate answers or where you get them from. And then move on from a response time, right? , where it was originally 2 days to receive a ballot, so now go immediately, right? Because the Chatbot obviously fed with company information, since it transferred the information to the collaborator. So, these types of details that would seem small are details that add a lot to the experience. 

Edward: Yes, yes. So before it was sending a fax, then it was sending, I mean, there are companies that continue to communicate with emails, right? , and this is the minutes of the meeting and this is what we have to do and if you want to request permission you have to send a formal email to these people, signatures, yes, yes, yes. So, hey how important is technology to be efficient and how that in the end I think that companies are also competing with, that is, as in the collaborator experience, as in the consumer experience, right? In other words, you and I today, because in our daily lives all the tools we use are much more immediate, why do organizations continue to have all that bureaucracy and that seen from the internal collaborator, that is, since you already have the collaborator, but now let's see it from the outside and we are going to see it and unfortunately we are faced with an environment where the Head Hunter, for example, I log on LinkedIn and suddenly I see a thousand thousand complaints from people saying, “They never answer, they're inhuman, it's not clear.” And here I do want to make an important point, that is, imagine for every application that we upload to the network, right? , how many CVs do we get? In other words, it would be fantastic for us to be able to answer the 75 people who presented us with the intention of participating, sometimes it's not that the Head Hunter I don't want to answer, but it's simply humanly impossible for us. So, I mean, if it's humanly impossible, Why not make it mechanically possible, no, or technologically possible? And there are a lot of tools that already have these, but in the end this Chatbot which helps you because when your candidate arrives, the candidate fills out a form, that form feeds a base and the base tells you: qualify or don't qualify. Hey, if you don't qualify, Send, you send a message to say, “Thank you very much for collaborating with or for your interest in participating in our vacancy, this one, however, does not cover the profile right now”, but we are not seeing that need, that is, we are not worried about how the user is perceiving us, because in the end it is a...

Edward: Yes, in other words, sometimes we only think about the hired candidate and not about the 80, 90, 100, 500 who didn't arrive and that if they have a bad experience in the process, of course, they will say: “Hey, I never want to work or I don't want to see you, no, you're the recruiter, so I don't want to work at all.”

Manu Rojas: Hey, we're talking about the candidate's experience, right? And that becomes relevant

Edward: Yes, because let's say, you're going to have 10 candidates, of those 10 candidates one is going to be a collaborator, because I've been treating you well from the start, right? I mean, why should it be any different? No, you're not my, you're not on my team right now, I'm not going to treat you well until you're part of it.

Manu Rojas: Then it also becomes an aspirational theme of: “I want to work in that company because they treat you so well there.” Of course.

Edward: So I love it, in other words, and what we said about communication, because communication projects a lot, in other words, how do you talk to the collaborator? How do you name it? How do you tell him? How does it make you feel? And that means that today you and I are sitting at a table talking about what is truly becoming important for people and therefore important for the organization.

Manu Rojas: When the company understands that being close to candidates, i.e. to internal collaborators, has an impact that is not immediately seen, but in the medium and long term it can be an important differential, it is that they begin to pay attention to these details, right? And I think that today technology makes what is humanly impossible much easier, of course, it works for you.

‍

Block: Change Management, Leadership and Acceptance of Error

Edward: Returning to the subject of this evolution from customer-centric companies to collaborator-focused companies, there is sometimes, as it were, a little resistance to change. Speaking of rituals, concrete tactics, you will have a story, something about how well in your experience you have tried to help or push the fact that the truth is not simple and cannot be done overnight.

Manu Rojas: Look, talk about of Change Management It's complicated, but it's complicated in human nature. And here I'm going to give you an example that I want you to answer, right? Why is it difficult for people to change? Because we like to be comfortable, don't we? Like the survival instinct is, “I already have my security around here, don't move the thing around because here I feel like I can survive.” Now, if we think outside of comfort, it also represents losing or leaving for good. It's a thanatological process, if you realize it, it's a, “Hey, I've been doing it this way for 5 years in the company and if it changes today, it represents stopping doing what I was already doing well to start doing something that I don't know if I'm going to do it right.” So, all change processes are human processes, they are processes where we must lead people to understand that change is necessary, that change is painful and never, ever, and I always say this hey to leaders, never belittle the feeling of a collaborator, it's their pain, of course. Help him to understand it, it just helps to understand that pain. “Hey, I understand that this is going to hurt, I understand that this is going to be complicated, but we need them and we need to start doing it now.” No? And then he poses that scenario of change with how painful it will be without hiding information. No, man, it's going to be so easy, no, please, don't be afraid. And if it's not very easy, you've already lied, then your word is already on the table. No, It's going to be difficult, I'm not lying to you, it's going to represent much more work than we did before while or during the process in which we're getting engaged, but once you get engaged, it's going to be much faster for you, it's going to represent this, this, this, this and this. Always speak clearly and transparently. Change will always be about speaking clearly and transparently. So that's more than a ritual, it's the invitation, isn't it? And leaders in the end, if we are all paradigmatic, that is, we live with paradigms, right? “It's just that this has always been done this way, it's that we've always placed this.” The reality is that there are times when it does work, of course, of course. And of course there are practices that are going to work, there are and there are also other experiences where you bet on change and it didn't work, right? And it's okay, in other words, because it's worth it, we're on a learning path, aren't we? In other words, something that always and that and that I feel is as definitive within organizations is learn to teach our leaders, okay? that the errors are valid and that the errors are necessary. Many organizations live with the pointed out error and so people are very afraid of making mistakes. When a person is limited to making mistakes, they are also limited to creating, of course. The greatest creations were generated from errors.

Manu Rojas: Yes, of someone who ventured to fail and then how was that failure perceived? Well, it was perceived as an area for improvement, that's it.

Edward: And it's very common for organizations to point fingers at this area or this person didn't comply with the process or did it wrong or ventured out. No, I love that's where the phrase, uh, I think it's from Facebook that basically says: “The problem, the problems in this organization are not one person's problems, they're everyone's problems.” No, I mean, I tried half to translate it, but a lot of times a very annoying customer comes in and it's very easy for another area to say: “Oh, no, that's a customer service issue.” Of course. No, no, That's an organization-wide problem, isn't it? About marketing, about sales, about operations, how do we approach Hey, I think it's very easy to say it, but on a daily basis sometimes we all tend to say: “No, because it was an area skis or a person.” And that affects this culture a lot, do you agree?

Manu Rojas: No, it totally affects, because in the end people live under a scheme in which I don't want to participate, I don't mean because if I'm wrong, of course, I'm worth less, right? Or if I'm wrong, I'm going out, right? So people are already living like this, son, it becomes complicated because I also understand that organizations say: “We need accurate results.” Yes, but you have to open spaces for creation, you have to open spaces for error. Clearly a mistake should not be repeated, that is, that is something clear and that is something obvious, right? In other words, the mistake that is repeated, well, is because the person clearly no longer had a learning process about the first mistake and there we are talking about a person who was this reckless, even, no, imperious and reckless, he doesn't know that he couldn't do it, he did it, he made a mistake and repeated it again. There that's, uh, inexcusable, isn't it? But when it comes up, right? , from that first attempt, let's see what we can do to improve, right? And leaders are the fundamental part. A phrase that I love to repeat all the time and that I say to all leaders is: “The word convinces but the example drags on.” Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. In other words, you can say: “This is going to be done this way and we are going to achieve it”, but if you transmit your communication by example, you are going to achieve incredible results, because in the end if you become aware of people, you identify the departments, they all begin to generate as synergies, even physically personality begins to appear and they are tribes, right? Those in finance, those in human resources, those in marketing, but that provides, let's say, are microcultures, right?

Edward: They are microcultures within a culture that nourishes, aren't they? , well, all this spirit of the organization.

Manu Rojas: Of course, of course, no, I completely agree. The truth is that organizations have a brutal challenge to evolve, I think that the pandemic demonstrated the need to focus on the collaborator, the challenges that exist, as you said, of the generations of retaining talent, a talent that has a thousand alternatives, that can now work anywhere in the world, eh no, in other words, like the dynamics of work have evolved, uh, and that presents an important retention challenge. And a while ago we were talking about metrics, how to measure impact, like I have the perspective that regularly and the bias that when a person leaves uh they almost always say: “No, because he went for a better salary, we can't afford it.”

No, I mean, we go to the most obvious conclusions and we think that people only move for money eh or because they offered them a position under a different name.

‍

Block: Strategic Offboarding and the Future Vision People First

Eduardo: How much thinking about this experience of the final collaborator do I think we have talked about it several times on other occasions and you are passionate about this, why is the experience of important Offboarding, of the exit eh and how do you do to make the leadership and the operational areas of the business understand that the employee experience does impact theThe exits, of course, since that costs the company money.

Manu Rojas: A lot. Look, **it's important because at the end of the day it talks about truth and it talks about congruence, right? You can't treat a person well on the way in and badly on the way out. What type of person are you? No, just “well, you're not going to participate anymore, you're not going to generate sales anymore.” No? Of course it is, but he talks about you outside, so of course, if that person is doing very badly he will say: “No, it's just that they did this to me, this, this.” And he begins to talk about one of a system of tyrannies where people say: “How? I mean, it's just a pretty face but inside it's not right.” And so the topic I'm telling you is consistency and transparency, of course. In other words, the outputs should be as transparent as saying to the collaborator: “Hey, look, this failed, this was wrong. Thank you very much for your participation, we really appreciate what you were able to do with us, however, we don't cover, right? with what you delivered, but here we are.” There are going to be annoying collaborators, okay? Those who do not have that possible clarity in their thinking, but beware, if from the recruitment process we are getting the most sensible people possible to be part of this circle, there will be fewer, that is, fewer, those who leave with that feeling of guilt, right? Hey, how do you do that with leadership? I mean, I know it's frustrating sometimes when you don't get a result, when you don't get that, but in the end how you communicate to him is important, how you download the information and how you invite him out, because in the end he's going to speak well of you or he's going to speak ill of you, that's why. No, I mean, and we can give examples from everyday life, right? A separation, a divorce, what's the difference between a dad and a mom getting along when they get divorced? There's good communication, so they ended up as guys, didn't they? I mean, you know what? We started out as good friends, we ended up being good friends, right? Why do you end up in a bad relationship? Well, because someone gives a bad start, that is, if it is normal, I mean, it's very common in that part. Well, in the in the, that is, in the end there are parts of the perception of employment that come out that are valid, of course, and that sometimes it is part of our responsibility to take all that information to provide feedback on the entire process.

Edward: Hey, maybe we failed to attract talent, hey, maybe in the training process, I mean, hey, just as it's valuable and hey the ENPS, This information that is collected from the famous exit surveys also helps to improve this entire employee experience.

Manu Rojas: Completely, that is, as I say, the NPS is not always going to pay to know what we are doing well, Mostly the exit survey helps us understand what we are doing wrong. And it's not bad to do bad things, we came from having argued at a time that it's worth making mistakes, as leaders we're also going to make mistakes, we're going to choose a wrong profile, we're going to give a bad instruction, that's fine too. Now, be careful, there you have to see those exit polls with a special magnifying glass, of course, because everyone is going to say: “Sure, we fired him, he's going to talk terrible about us.” And then you dismiss anything, maybe at first glance you can't see it, but underneath there are very valuable things, right?

Edward: And just as you say, we have to ensure one point only where there can be no dismissal of anything, of anything. In other words, you can't dismiss what the collaborator felt, so let's explore what happened, hey, maybe there was an excessive workload, hey, maybe if the profile wasn't exactly what we needed, well, let's share the responsibility. He took the challenge, it was not achieved the objective was not met, but then we were the ones who gave the challenge to a person who was not going to fulfill it, eh? I mean, you have to see it too

Manu Rojas: And in the end, two-party relationships, of course, right?

Edward: Very interesting. And now, How do you think we say that there are many more and more similarities between the way we treat customers and the way we treat employees because of all that we are talking about? How does it also make an impact when you said it at the beginning and a satisfied employee you said well is someone who is going to treat customers well? How do you see that relationship between a good employee experience and a good customer experience?

Manu Rojas: Look, there's right within these measurement parameters where they tell you: “Hey, a person is satisfied or a customer recommends 10 customers and then those 10 become another 10 and it's going to turn into that scale.” The same thing happens with a collaborator. A collaborator who brings a customer is going to bring you many more because of the recommendation of the recommendation, right? So how do we do it? Well, that's what I mean in particular, the satisfied employee will always bring more people. You have to let him know that if the company grows you grow, but truly deliver the values he can obtain, right? “Oh, well, they've grown up but what did I get.” No? I mean, it's that part. So in the end that's it, The similarity that exists between the employee and the customer experience is that both are customers. In other words, at the end of the day everyone gets something from the company. The customer will receive the service or product we are providing, but the collaborator also receives no compensation from us, receives a benefit from us and receives a stay from us, he is also receiving. So, if it's an effect of receiving, we have to do it in balance so that both of us can see the virtues of having it. “Hey, I have this glass, I bought it, hey, I see the virtues of having it.” Okay. Now, you collaborator, must see the virtues of having delivered the glass, of having been part of that chain for the glass to arrive. When we both see the virtues, then we realize that the experience is the same for both of us.

Edward: Of course, and maybe for some companies it's more obvious because they're in entertainment, maybe other companies in the industry, because of the industry it's hard to see that, huh, but it's also very important. To close, I would like, Manu, to always know your perspective and vision of what you see in the future, how do you see that it is evolving let's say this new trend of People First, how do you see organizations in 3 years, between now and 2030, how do you see that the topic of employee experience will become relevant and what will it focus on, that is, what are organizations going to start doing to contribute to this equation of employee experience?

Manu Rojas: Well, look, the main thing that I would expect organizations to begin to visualize is a fundamental point: Nowadays, budgets are focused on attracting talent but not on retention. And then it's something I can't understand, hey, this collaborator leaves and “you know what? Don't counteroffer him, it's better to look for a more expensive one, in other words, but he's already been through a learning curve, he's already been through a process of Onboarding and he's in the process of falling out of love with us. First understand that budgets must be sustainable budgets, of course, but they must be aimed at people who are already with us. If you turn your eyes to people who are already there, that's the first one, because you're going to realize that Maintaining it is much cheaper than bringing in new people, much more expensive. So, that would be the first thing. Another one is that Talking about organizational development is no longer just going to be talking about the New Year's Eve party, do you know? That's something that the human resources taboo, son, really all of a sudden when, “Hey, are you in human resources?” “Oh yeah, are you the one who pays and the one at the end of the year party?” No? You get to that point where, why do you think that about me?

Edward: To how culturally adopted that joke is in all companies.

Manu Rojas: Everyone, I mean, everyone really believes that's true, right? But in the end there's a job behind it, isn't there? In other words, how is technology progressing? Completely, use these types of mechanisms that allow us to attract the best talent and in less time, to have large databases of people who want to collaborate with us and always pay for the employing brand, that is, to always be an employing brand. Nowadays, if you realize, human resources people stopped becoming human resources people to become salespeople. We are salespeople, we are selling a life expectancy, we are selling a project, we are selling the possibility of being part of an organization and gaining talent is increasingly difficult. It all depends on the Pitch that you use when you welcome him, say: “Hey, I am this, I offer you this.” So, Where are we going? Towards much more human processes, people-centered processes, right? I always talk about humanizing the operation, don't I? , to understand that people are doing everything possible and that we have to focus on their needs.

Edward: Brutal, brutal, I think hey hey it's very good and I think we could talk there for hours longer huh and all this evolution, that is, what you were saying about Pitch In terms of sales, there are already a lot of people in the United States, the topic of Employee Value Proposition and all the dynamics that used to be applied to marketing and sales, of course, are being brought to attract talent, to areas of people. Hey I'd like to close enough to leave something interesting hey hey and practical for the audience. At what point does a company need a specialist in organizational development and organizational culture? We know that 90.95% of companies in Latin America, in our country Mexico, are SMEs, they are family businesses where the human resources area is a person doing everything, of course. At what point huh do you think it's essential to have a person specialized in that, don't you? At what point does an organization need someone focused on employee experience or organizational culture?

‍

Closure and recommendations

Manu Rojas: I can give you the answer from the heart and I can give it to you from the brain. From the heart, always, right? , since they opened. From a slightly more conscious point of view, isn't it? , speaking of the moments in which an entrepreneur lives, because it could be from the moment when they are going to start growing and that this growth projects, right? , the hoarding of a lot of people, isn't it? , hog many more places. Why? What I was saying to you, a culture with few people is sustainable, as CEO I can set the tone for my culture, how we are going to do it, but when I grow up, I am the one who planned everything, who developed everything, I start to move away from the base and then they no longer start to have it. So, growth always aims to establish the profile of organizational development with greater specificity because organizational development starts from seeing structures, that is, issues of organizational architecture, right? , issues of organizational development that become important, issue of compensation, topic of how we are benefiting the employee. That's why I say, from growth, that is, let's look at it from the point where the company or organization has this vision of growth, you're always going to need a person to help you focus on a much more natural topic. It's why a high-performance athlete hires a Coach, of course, because he is going to run a great competition or because he is going to go to a great competition and he needs someone's hand to train himself in that. Because a person eats a diet with a nutritionist or an endocrinologist, because they have a clear objective and their clear objective is measurable: I want to lose weight or I want to build muscle mass. OK, that's why you're going with a person who specializes in that. Do you want your company to grow with the necessary muscle mass, to grow with that foundation? Well, you're going to have to look for an organizational architect, an organizational nutritionist and that's the development one, right?

Edward: Completely. Brutal, brutal. Well, thank you very much. I don't know if you want to share anything else hey with the audience before closing this episode and thanks for the conversation.

Manu Rojas: No, well, I thank you very much and just share with the audience and that we are human resources people, I know that Talking romantically about human resources for many can be annoying, it can be uncomfortable, but in the end we have to understand one thing: people are the ones who nourish the organization and without people there would be no organization today, right? Talking about artificial intelligence is Cool, we are going there and we are going to get a lot of benefits from it, but there will always be someone behind feeding what intelligence needs in order to achieve the human result, right? And the interaction has taught us that. So, focusing on people is going to be the best investment we can make in our organizations.

Edward: Very good. Hey, Manu, if you had to summarize this chapter in a very quick, very specific sentence, if you had to give it a title, what would it be?

Manu Rojas: People First.

Edward: Very good, thank you, Manu.

Manu Rojas: Thanks to you.

‍

‍